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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
...anyone catch Dateline last evening where they were talking about popping un-licensed contractors?? That was the first segment, the second segment was about legit contractors that can go "under" and still screw you. I wanna write a few thoughts on this and I'd like to get some other viewpoints. I was alerted to this episode on Nathan's other board (contractortalk), but I wanted to start this dialogue here and see what you fellas thought. I just have a few points:

1) I am SO SICK of hearing about contractors screwing people.....no, I'm not mad at contractors, I'm mad because there is never a Dateline about contractors getting screwed by customers. I am mad because there is no, "Better Homeowner Bureau". 99% of the time an HO gets screwed, it is their own fault--don't check referrals, ins., or as usual, go with the low bid.

2) The second part was about builders that are legit, but get in over their heads, have been paid money off of jobs, cannot pay their debtors, payroll, etc. and end up declaring bankruptcy---the homeowner has no recourse (unless there is a bond). I want to make clear, I am NOT SURE this is my stand on this, but this was a thought I was considering: they approached this builder who had declared bankruptcy, cost a couple clients a lot of $$, and he was back working as a construction supervisor on a job he had prior to declaration. The host grilled him and asked him what he was going to do to make it up to the people and he said, "I'm sorry, I cannot do anything, that is why I declared, I simply made some bad mistakes."

She proceeded to grill him/degrade him. Back to the thought I had. Does he have a moral/ethical obligation to try and make this right?? My thought was, the govt puts us in a situation with taxes, regulations, etc. that makes it virtually impossible for us to make real strides at getting ahead in life. So whenever that system that is in place that has basically taken money from you all of these years works out in your favor, why shouldn't you take it?? Why does he owe those people?? Keep in mind, I am making this point considering the house was around 5mil, a guy screws up 250K on the bid and he is dead. And I am assuming he wasn't taking downpayments to Vegas, etc.

I guess for me, what this angst boils down to is my hostility towards income tax. I don't mind paying for city, even property, and the rest should be made up in purchases. Charge me 700% on new car purchasas. Fine. It's my choice. But what I earn should be MINE. And the fact that the system is essentially set up to make you feel like you are trying to be deceptive makes me furious. You don't report 10K, you are an evader. But if you forget to add an exemption, there is no bad guy, it is just a mistake on your part. Either way you are wrong!!

...Sorry about the rant.....back on point---you guys think a man that declares bankruptcy has the moral/ethical responsibility to make good on those things??
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I think he should be in prison.

..For failing?? For being a bad businessman?? Let's use 'you' as an example. You are a deck refinisher with a lot of success--three years under your belt (hypothetical). You are cocky. Run into your first deck, people tell you it has acrylic stain, but you've always made it happen. Oh, what a surprise. You actually LOSE money on the deck--as in, you charged $1000, and it cost you $1100. A 10% overrun/failure. But you learned a $100 lesson.

Amp this scenario to being a builder. A 10% overrun may equal some furious customers at best, at worst bankruptcy. The same system that reams us daily by making us paying income tax, WC, etc. actually COMES THROUGH for you in this case, and gives you somewhat of a second chance (with MASSIVE repercussions). I dunno.
 

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I didn't get to see the special.... However I do know a bit about Bankruptcy. Not all folks that declare are just trying to skip on bills that they owe. Say business owner doesn't get paid for a large job by an A-hole consumer and is stuck having to pay his subs or for materials. That alone could throw a company way outta whack. Especially if you add to it perhaps at the same time he has 2 outstanding receivables and is already low on cash. His creditors are adding fees and penalties everyday and re-occuring bills like insurance still coming each month. Not long and a deep hole is there and not much can get him out but the the BK.

I personally filed a couple years ago because I got stuck with my ex-wifes debt. I had the ability to pay but tried going through other methods to make sure She had to pay but nothing resolved and in mean time my credit got wrecked. The BK was the only thing I could do to try to improve my credit rating. I REFUSED to pay someone elses bills. Had nothing to do with my Character or ethics. Was not my debt so I didn't pay.

So basically, this guy may have just been passing the buck. Maybe a sub or customer didn't keep thier word and put him in a small bind that snowballed into a big one. Who knows? All it takes is one bounced check from a senile senior citizen(not her fault that she forgot to enter a debit into her checkbook) into your account and you have just sent out checks to some of your accounts payables. The bank hits you with fees, your Creditors hit you with fees, you are denied any more credit with them and now have to pay cash (that you may need to cover payroll) for materials etc.... Who should pay? The little old lady? Who is responsible for all those fees?

It's a bad situation and can happen on a small or large scale to ANYONE.
 

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I didn't get to see the special.... However I do know a bit about Bankruptcy. Not all folks that declare are just trying to skip on bills that they owe. Say business owner doesn't get paid for a large job by an A-hole consumer and is stuck having to pay his subs or for materials. That alone could throw a company way outta whack. Especially if you add to it perhaps at the same time he has 2 outstanding receivables and is already low on cash. His creditors are adding fees and penalties everyday and re-occuring bills like insurance still coming each month. Not long and a deep hole is there and not much can get him out but the the BK.

I personally filed a couple years ago because I got stuck with my ex-wifes debt. I had the ability to pay but tried going through other methods to make sure She had to pay but nothing resolved and in mean time my credit got wrecked. The BK was the only thing I could do to try to improve my credit rating. I REFUSED to pay someone elses bills. Had nothing to do with my Character or ethics. Was not my debt so I didn't pay.

So basically, this guy may have just been passing the buck. Maybe a sub or customer didn't keep thier word and put him in a small bind that snowballed into a big one. Who knows? All it takes is one bounced check from a senile senior citizen(not her fault that she forgot to enter a debit into her checkbook) into your account and you have just sent out checks to some of your accounts payables. The bank hits you with fees, your Creditors hit you with fees, you are denied any more credit with them and now have to pay cash (that you may need to cover payroll) for materials etc.... Who should pay? The little old lady? Who is responsible for all those fees?

It's a bad situation and can happen on a small or large scale to ANYONE.
i agree its easy to jump on someone when you dont know all the circumstances ...i myself had to file in 1990 due to a fight i got into outside a bar the guy had me blocked in and would not move he came after me with a crobar and i defended myself......i.e. I broke his jaw both cheek bones and cracked the orbiit around his eye ,i then started kicking him (when his gun fell out)broke his ribs in 16 places and ruptured his spleen......all in all i was charged with 1st degree assault and i won the case in court but lost a civil suit filed by him and his insurance company(they said i went too far)anyway when the dust settled and all was done i had a $167,000 judgement ...so i went bankrupt on it and reaffirmed all other debts keeping my credit in good standing:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
...What self-respecting guy would file a civil suit for getting beat up in a bar fight?? He SERIOUSLY deserves to get pummeled again. You should start a website about it with pics, descriptions, etc. and post it all around your hometown, etc. so everyone is reminded what a loser the guy is. I don't agree with starting a fight, but there is no shame in losing, whether you started it or not. An unspoken rule of being a gentleman and losing a fight is that you let it go, and you don't involve authorities, unless you are afraid for the safety of your family, etc.
 

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I went through my own issues. I filed for bankruptcy after I got divorced so I am understanding that things do not always go as you planed and that people make mistakes. What differentiates recovery from escape is the desire to make things right.

When I say someone should be in prison it is not to punish bad business sense you have to look at the big picture. I do believe one should be properly capitalized and have a sound business plan for float cash and expenditures. I also understand that the majority of people are not capable of sustaining a business (as evidenced by statistical failure rate). Where the obligation comes in is in, again, mking things right. The contractor should not be allowed to climb from out under obligations because he was an idiot and could not run his business. He is, in my opinion, obligated to the homeonwer to either complete the work or make financial restitution. How dare someone sell themselves as competetant and screw someone out of that type of money.

My mother in-law has been screwed twice in the past five years. Once she was charged $40,000 for an addition that I had to come in and finish and then again by a concrete/masonry company for $15,000. Both contractors consistently came to her for additional payments and one even admitted he could't make payroll unless she gave him additional money. Wanting the projects completed she just gave and gave. Unfortunately the majority of contractors that get into trouble like this have extracuricular activities that affect their cash flow. In my opinion, that is stealing. My mother in law was left well off by her dioceased husband but she is not a billionaire.

I think the problem is people being able to just walk away from obligations. As I said, I got into trouble with two mortgages, consumer goods, alimony and child support and needed to get out from under. I have since then made all possible restitution and work hard to not get into the same trap.

Its a fine line I admit and I'm certainmy one line comment stirs a bit of emotion. Hopefully this elaboration on that line helps you understand from where I am coming.
 

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Shoot and I thought I was bad for some charged off credit cards that the EX ran up in th casinos:censored:
 

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Ken, I didn't see the thing on Dateline so I don't know the particulars in his case. Would like to talk to you about how you fixed credit after the BK. How you were able to overcome bad credit and able to float a start up without the aid of credit... You can PM me or let me know if I can call ya.
 

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life is about choices ,we make them,sometimes they are right, some wrong,some questionable........no matter what life goes on and will go on we just have to be ready to accept responsibility for our decisions and actions.................screw that ,i was having a weak moment ......lets blame it all on jason from now on!!!!!!!!!

thats it!!!!! from now on whatever happens it is JASON @ ENVIROCLEANS fault
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
life is about choices ,we make them,sometimes they are right, some wrong,some questionable........no matter what life goes on and will go on we just have to be ready to accept responsibility for our decisions and actions.................screw that ,i was having a weak moment ......lets blame it all on jason from now on!!!!!!!!!

thats it!!!!! from now on whatever happens it is JASON @ ENVIROCLEANS fault

....I've been blaming the Indians for years for everything that is wrong in America, this will be nothing new for me.:)
 
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